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	<title>Comments on: Big Ideas in Literacy (The End of English Education)</title>
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	<link>http://theline.edublogs.org/2009/06/02/big-ideas-in-literacy-the-end-of-english-education/</link>
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		<title>By: Kim L.</title>
		<link>http://theline.edublogs.org/2009/06/02/big-ideas-in-literacy-the-end-of-english-education/comment-page-1/#comment-708</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My seventh grade English colleagues do an awesome poetry unit with their classes. The kids do some really neat work and they even share with me (their science teacher) their work. The themes the students address can get really serious and thoughtful, and I have to admit I am surprised who connects the strongest with their words. 

Because the students are so engaged I did a science review poem project right after my colleagues finished their poetry unit. We collected the students work into a booklet to give out. The idea worked well enough that we want to expand it next year. 

I think each discipline gains a lot from the other&#039;s perspective and practice, especially in  supporting students being able to adequately express their ideas and observations. As teachers we need to create opportunities for that to happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My seventh grade English colleagues do an awesome poetry unit with their classes. The kids do some really neat work and they even share with me (their science teacher) their work. The themes the students address can get really serious and thoughtful, and I have to admit I am surprised who connects the strongest with their words. </p>
<p>Because the students are so engaged I did a science review poem project right after my colleagues finished their poetry unit. We collected the students work into a booklet to give out. The idea worked well enough that we want to expand it next year. </p>
<p>I think each discipline gains a lot from the other&#8217;s perspective and practice, especially in  supporting students being able to adequately express their ideas and observations. As teachers we need to create opportunities for that to happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://theline.edublogs.org/2009/06/02/big-ideas-in-literacy-the-end-of-english-education/comment-page-1/#comment-707</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theline.edublogs.org/?p=258#comment-707</guid>
		<description>My son just finished 7th grade, so I&#039;ve seen one middle school curriculum from the parents&#039; perspective.  His &quot;English&quot; class had way too much vocab and grammar drill, and too little writing.  They did a lot &quot;dyslexic-friendly&quot; projects (make a poster of dogs for Call of the Wild, make models of the internment camp for Farewell to Manzanar, ...) and rather few essays.
They did almost nothing about the structure of an essay or how to do citations (they got just the 5-paragraph essay structure).  The teacher had the students reading aloud (mumbling, the one time I overheard it) for a big chunk of the period.  You&#039;re right, though, that they did no poetry (reading or writing) all year.

He had more writing in his ART class than in his English class!  He had almost as much writing and more poetry (reading and writing) in his Spanish 1A class.  Even his science class had more writing in the first semester.

This rather light-weight English class fit with my perception of the prior training of students in my tech writing classes---lots of hand-wavey &quot;discussion&quot; with little real training in the proper construction of papers and arguments.

Luckily, he had an awesome history teacher, who taught them how to write a research paper with proper citations, how to look for and use primary sources, and how to structure an argument and provide support.  She also had them doing several different forms of presentation (fake newspapers, research essays, historical fiction journal, ...).  The history teacher covered everything that the English class should have covered, in addition to American history using largely primary sources from colonial times to 1960s.  I realize that not all teachers can do as much (nor would I want them to---the homework load from the history class was easily 3 times that of any other class).  The contrast was pretty remarkable though, between an almost college-level history class and an English class for the nearly illiterate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My son just finished 7th grade, so I&#8217;ve seen one middle school curriculum from the parents&#8217; perspective.  His &#8220;English&#8221; class had way too much vocab and grammar drill, and too little writing.  They did a lot &#8220;dyslexic-friendly&#8221; projects (make a poster of dogs for Call of the Wild, make models of the internment camp for Farewell to Manzanar, &#8230;) and rather few essays.<br />
They did almost nothing about the structure of an essay or how to do citations (they got just the 5-paragraph essay structure).  The teacher had the students reading aloud (mumbling, the one time I overheard it) for a big chunk of the period.  You&#8217;re right, though, that they did no poetry (reading or writing) all year.</p>
<p>He had more writing in his ART class than in his English class!  He had almost as much writing and more poetry (reading and writing) in his Spanish 1A class.  Even his science class had more writing in the first semester.</p>
<p>This rather light-weight English class fit with my perception of the prior training of students in my tech writing classes&#8212;lots of hand-wavey &#8220;discussion&#8221; with little real training in the proper construction of papers and arguments.</p>
<p>Luckily, he had an awesome history teacher, who taught them how to write a research paper with proper citations, how to look for and use primary sources, and how to structure an argument and provide support.  She also had them doing several different forms of presentation (fake newspapers, research essays, historical fiction journal, &#8230;).  The history teacher covered everything that the English class should have covered, in addition to American history using largely primary sources from colonial times to 1960s.  I realize that not all teachers can do as much (nor would I want them to&#8212;the homework load from the history class was easily 3 times that of any other class).  The contrast was pretty remarkable though, between an almost college-level history class and an English class for the nearly illiterate.</p>
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		<title>By: Dina</title>
		<link>http://theline.edublogs.org/2009/06/02/big-ideas-in-literacy-the-end-of-english-education/comment-page-1/#comment-706</link>
		<dc:creator>Dina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theline.edublogs.org/?p=258#comment-706</guid>
		<description>Love this thread. Thanks. Here&#039;s what I&#039;m gathering. 

a) I need more emphasis on the idea that language is constructive: it not only names, but *creates* internal and external reality. Point of view is especially important in considering this idea. 

b) Kevin/H: I don&#039;t think your respective emphases are actually mutually exclusive; they only highlight the different ends for language as a means. Any curriculum that forsakes one for the other, OR does not make clear the connection between both, is impoverished. 

Kevin, I actually feel as if our middle school curriculum is swinging in an opposite direction from the one you worry about. We&#039;re becoming all non-fiction, all pragmatism, all functionalism. This is wicked important, of course, but not at the expense of The Diary of Anne Frank, or learning how to appreciate, write, memorize, and deliver poetry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love this thread. Thanks. Here&#8217;s what I&#8217;m gathering. </p>
<p>a) I need more emphasis on the idea that language is constructive: it not only names, but *creates* internal and external reality. Point of view is especially important in considering this idea. </p>
<p>b) Kevin/H: I don&#8217;t think your respective emphases are actually mutually exclusive; they only highlight the different ends for language as a means. Any curriculum that forsakes one for the other, OR does not make clear the connection between both, is impoverished. </p>
<p>Kevin, I actually feel as if our middle school curriculum is swinging in an opposite direction from the one you worry about. We&#8217;re becoming all non-fiction, all pragmatism, all functionalism. This is wicked important, of course, but not at the expense of The Diary of Anne Frank, or learning how to appreciate, write, memorize, and deliver poetry.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://theline.edublogs.org/2009/06/02/big-ideas-in-literacy-the-end-of-english-education/comment-page-1/#comment-705</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theline.edublogs.org/?p=258#comment-705</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m disagreeing with others here, so much as requesting more emphasis on the basics of writing and less on the higher-level literary analysis.  I&#039;m not trying to run down literary analysis, but it is rather pointless if the students don&#039;t have the basics of communicating in writing down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m disagreeing with others here, so much as requesting more emphasis on the basics of writing and less on the higher-level literary analysis.  I&#8217;m not trying to run down literary analysis, but it is rather pointless if the students don&#8217;t have the basics of communicating in writing down.</p>
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		<title>By: H.</title>
		<link>http://theline.edublogs.org/2009/06/02/big-ideas-in-literacy-the-end-of-english-education/comment-page-1/#comment-704</link>
		<dc:creator>H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:21:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theline.edublogs.org/?p=258#comment-704</guid>
		<description>Kevin - for all (apparent?) disagreement, I like your approach a lot. You might also enjoy &lt;a href=&quot;http://erichoefler.com/2008/06/17/the-world-of-english-according-to-me-pt-1/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eric Hoefler&#039;s take on it&lt;/a&gt;. I still think it is a worthy goal to try and make students see that no matter how clear, concise and complete you try to be, there is more than one way of telling the story (try reporting the same incident from the perspective of a Democrat and a Republican, a mother and a daughter, a billionaire and a homeless person - the differences will not go away even if all are skilled writers who are committed to clear communication and correct and honest narration). How to prioritize in a real-world teaching situation where many students come in without the ability to string together a sentence, though... I don&#039;t know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin &#8211; for all (apparent?) disagreement, I like your approach a lot. You might also enjoy <a href="http://erichoefler.com/2008/06/17/the-world-of-english-according-to-me-pt-1/" rel="nofollow">Eric Hoefler&#8217;s take on it</a>. I still think it is a worthy goal to try and make students see that no matter how clear, concise and complete you try to be, there is more than one way of telling the story (try reporting the same incident from the perspective of a Democrat and a Republican, a mother and a daughter, a billionaire and a homeless person &#8211; the differences will not go away even if all are skilled writers who are committed to clear communication and correct and honest narration). How to prioritize in a real-world teaching situation where many students come in without the ability to string together a sentence, though&#8230; I don&#8217;t know.</p>
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